Reveal and Heal

Interview with Mark Devlin

Good Vibrations Podcast

(with transcript, links and references)

Transcript of Interview with Mark Devlin


Note to researchers: I am currently working through the following transcript, adding references and links which is not yet complete.  Anticipate this will take a few more days. Cathi Morgan. 7th October 2017

MARK: Welcome to another episode. My guest today is going to be getting into the links between the British arm of MKULTRA mind control research, also LSD and the free party festival scene of the UK which in turn is linked to the acid house scene that kicked off pretty much exactly 30 years ago and with the incredible far reaching impact that had on youth culture worldwide, so subjects very close to my heart, welcome to Cathi Morgan,


MARK: You’re a researcher and public speaker on the subjects I just outlined, basically MKULTRA mind control, how that plays out in the UK and the links to all these other things, and it seems you’ve got some personal investment in all this and you know some quite fascinating stories to tell so just to set the scene would you like to give people some brief background into yourself, your life story and what it was that led to you investigating these kind of subjects, and becoming something of an inside whistleblower I guess.

CATHI: Sure yeah . . well I became aware of MKULTRA probably about . . 9 or 10 years ago and I had alarm bells going off, thinking, you know, this could be something that’s happened to me, some sort of covert non-consensual . . things. I thought they’d happened to me, so I began to research . . really, research facts around my family and life events, asking questions, tracing links . . and indeed it did come up with a lot of information about MKULTRA . . and the UK which has been welcomed, really, by other researchers . . in England. (See interactive mindmap of links – drag or click on small down arrow to search the mindmap – ed)

So . . after a couple of years I was invited to share my research and that’s what I did, really, thinking, you know, this is important, because for myself, finding . . these types of covert interventions, into people’s lives gave . . seemed to be a good explanation for me and my life started to make more sense to me, then. I’d been quite, I suppose you could say as asleep really (laughs).

MARK: Could I just ask what it was that first prompted you to look into whether you might have a personal involvement in this UK play out of MKULTRA and into your family background in detail, what was it that first sent you down that route and towards these discoveries?

CATHI: It was really more intuition than any particular facts, in my teenage years and early 20’s I’d lived sort of the hippy lifestyle, I’d been, you know, I went to the free festivals and partook in, really that emerging scene, well it seemed to be emerging, it had probably been going on – it was 1974 when I went to this festival, that was the Windsor festival

MARK: Right,

CATHI:  . . and I just felt that things hadn’t really been as I’d imagined . . I’d imagined that they were. . . I found it uncomfortable in some ways because of my own issues but now looking back I realised it was . .  managed in some – in many instances – by Intelligence. (1)

MARK: Let’s get into all of that in due course certainly but first off I think most people can understand why celebrities and those in key positions in the public eye, politicians and world leaders and such would have been subject to mind control programming but they find it more difficult to understand why this stuff would be done to just regular members of society, people from regular walks of life. What motive do you think there could be for the controllers having programmed subjects everywhere . . just going about their daily business. Why would it be so important for them to have these aspects of regular human society under surveillance and control and – could it be military family backgrounds that are the key to who this gets done to?

CATHI: That’s certainly, you know, a common factor, however, I had . . the whole research really sparked off when I got post traumatic stress from being in a violent relationship, a short but violent relationship. I recognised by researching PTSD in order to present my case to the . . to get sickness benefit for a while. I researched it quite deeply because I was told . . I was one of the first ATOS victims, if you like, so I researched PTSD, I recognised I’d had many symptoms growing up throughout my life I’d been dissociative, very dissociative really.  I’d run away from home at 15 . .

So I started to look and I found that my – there was unusual stuff around my grandparents, who had – my grandmother had talked about a twin being taken away when my mum was born – my mum was a twin, and this other twin according to my grandmother was alive and the priest and the doctor took it. That was a sort of alarm bell. And then we had my mum’s cousin, whose mother was raised away from the family and then my mother’s cousin went into a top . . he became a defense research scientist who worked reorganising the defense services with Thatcher, he chaired a commonwealth conference. He was working on the  Blue Knight and Black Streak rockets, so that was another sort of indication and then I found out that my grandfather’s parents, and my grandmother’s parents had both worked in service to the Royal Household, so again a possibility of having been picked up there. .

MARK: Right

CATHI:  and what convinced me in the end was that although my sister and I had been part of a fairly regular longitudinal survey, the survey documentation said basically that the children would be contacted at the age of 6 to answer questionnaires and the parents were given a questionnaire at birth and there . . wasn’t any other involvement (2)

However, in talking to my parents about it, they said “oh no, we were visited at least every three months from birth”. So then I sort of researched what . . the area we moved into at the age of four – we’d moved from North Manchester, from Rochdale, in fact, to the village of Swainswick in Bath, which was just 10 miles from the actual team doing the NCDS (National Child Development) Survey. So then I started to see if there were links between the people running those surveys and MKULTRA, so that’s when I discovered that there seemed to be a lot of surveys administered by the London School of Economics – they were literally the Eugenics Society historically and there were links for sure – you know to MKULTRA there

MARK: I’m familiar with some TV shows on the BBC where they take a group of selected individuals from childhood and they trace them through their teenage formative years to teenagers into adulthood and they revisit them every few years to see where they’re at in life and what they’ve been up to so they’re tracing their entire development and making it public, and what your talking about here seems to be a variation on that, so that’s the entertainment version for the public palate, but there’s actually a covert version of this that’s going on unseen to the general public sort of behind the scenes for what, of social monitoring purposes?

CATHI Yeah I’m . . I haven’t seen the one on television but that was exactly the sort of survey, in a way. . they were called the NCDS, the first one was in 1946, twelve years later – and that was funded by the eugenics society – and then 12 years later in 1958, (all children born in a particular week in these years were signed up automatically for the survey), so in 1958 that was 17,000 children. But as I say the majority of the children were given just . . really, didn’t have very much intervention. However I recall going to appointments in Bath to be . . to meet with doctors, I assume they were doctors, they had white coats on and we also – because we lived very close to an underground base, (which was actually secret at the time), I was quite intrigued when my mum – that was in Corsham on the border of Wiltshire and Somerset – that my Mum said we did actually get taken to Corsham for some of these appointments – but they also came to our house so that, you know, this was confirming my intuition that there was a lot more had been going on than I’d ever thought, you know?

MARK: It certainly sounds like there are military links to all this in terms of how these kids are being selected for this kind of monitoring through their lives, you know, these family backgrounds and links into military intelligence certainly seem to be key to that rather than it being just some random lottery and just bad luck on the parts of certain individuals and I bet if you did more digging you’d find that freemasonry and other secret society fraternity links wouldn’t be far from the surface either. We can only speculate on that but it wouldn’t surprise me if that turned out to be the case,

CATHI: That’s what I’m starting to see,and there certainly were military links to . . these surveys were born, really . . Solly Zuckerman was an operational research advisor, very high level advisor in the second world war and he initially did surveys, simply getting all the children in Hull to write essays about their experiences of bombing and air raids and he took those essays and analyzed them for the most fearful factors which then informed the bombing of Dresden, literally, you know, that’s absolutely recorded . . they found out the children were most disturbed when they lost their homes for example so they decided to bomb large areas of working class civillians in Dresden to cause the . . worst amount of disruption and also literally said “more blood per bomb” would be achieved, you know, so that was . . Solly Zuckerman was working with one of the five members of the team – the main five members, of the NCDS team, called James W.B Douglas. He’d worked with him since he was a student and they went on to work together on these surveys.


CATHI: Now, Zuckerman was also closely linked to Sir Henry Tizard (3) who is known to have attended a meeting in Montreal in 1951 with representatives of the CIA and also a chap called Solandt (4) and it was decided that there would be research under (MKULTRA Projects – ed) Artichoke and Bluebird looking at using sensory deprivation – this is when the sensory deprivation . . research was planned and it fed . . literally . . they set up . . Ewen Cameron from that meeting to do his stuff. (5)  But Tizard came back to England and the Officer’s mess was based at Oriel College, Oxford, and Tizard was a fellow of Oriel College, now Oriel College actually owned most of the village that I had been moved to in Swainswick, the tiny village of Swainswick was virtually totally owned by Oriel College Oxford. So once you start getting into these, you know these sort of links and lots of them then you realise you are really onto something. (6)

MARK: We’ve heard so many tantalizing stories about the MKULTRA project coming out of the CIA and the way that all played out in America, most notably through the LSD drenched 1960’s counter culture scene but very little is ever said of the British side of this program. And when you factor in that the very creation of the CIA out of the OSS involved key personnel from British Military Intelligence, not least Aldous Huxley – because the Huxley family are always up to their eyes in all this nefarious stuff when you get behind the scenes, I guess it stands to reason that much of the social experimentation would be going on in the UK, because that seems to be the origin of most of this stuff in the first place before it’s exported to America. So naturally there’s going to be a homegrown version of it which seems to have flown under the radar a bit more. It’s the way it’s played out in the US that has grabbed headlines and got, you know truth researchers really engaged, but there’s got to be a UK version of this story still waiting to be fully uncovered, right?

CATHI: Definitely, this is what they actually said at that meeting was that Britain had many programs underway already and that was that the Canadians and Americans, the CIA were keen to collaborate and share information so there was a big sharing of sort of information around hardware, bombs, nuclear bombs and so on and Tizard was related to that. That was related to the Tizard Mission, and then came the . . specifically the brainwashing, they called it. That was another collaboration.

So as I say, Tizard worked closely with Zuckerman and Zuckerman had worked closely with Julian Huxley  (7). . and he’d also worked with Aldous Huxley too,and they had made a movie – Julian Huxley and Solly Zuckerman mad a movie called Monkey into Man. Umm now that would have been in, I think the forties, that they made the movie together and it was a eugenic . . Huxley and Zuckerman were both zoologists, but what I’ve discovered is that every single study of any animal or behaviour around animals is specifically applied to understand humans better, it’s not to make the animals more comfortable, I can promise you that! you know? (laughs)

MARK: Yes. To what extent has the Tavistock Institute’s name come up in your research in all these areas because it does tend to pop up from time to time I notice when you get into these kind of affairs, have you come across any specific involvement from the Tavistock

CATHI: Yeah I am finding out more and more now about where the Tavistock links in because it’s almost like become like doing a jigsaw now and you know some areas are getting filled in and the Tavistock is a definite area there linking in to others. It’s interesting to look at the origins of what . . how the Tavistock came about because initially you had something called the Psychopathic clinic which became the Portman clinic and that was linked to Child Guidance so that was . . there was somebody call Grace Pailthorpe and . . who was a founder of the Institute for the Scientific treatment of Delinquency, which was the precursor to the Child Guidance Clinics and was all very much under Tavistock – under the Tavistock – the child guidance system, so this is where they started to describe certain behaviours as delinquent and then that gave them the reason to bring children into the clinics and then many were brought into care, and of course now we are seeing that there are children brought into care who were treated with a lot of practices that were associated with MKULTRA like being given truth serum and being subjected to, really what amount to torturous practices, solitary confinement at a young age and of course now we have the testimony of many of them that there was organised sexual abuse going on as well. So you know, you can start to see how . . really, it’s almost like MKULTRA is throughout the establishment, it almost is like – in the UK it IS the establishment, it’s . . undoubtedly there were extremities, there were black operations, like say for example Cathy O Brien who was a presidential model and she was abused by high level characters, but I think it then spreads out so in the UK you’d have a more visible side of things, which can be reinterpreted now in the light of, you know, history as being linked to the MKULTRA practices.

MARK: I think the overall gist of the story is . . all this goes so much deeper than we ever thought. I think a lot of people would have entertained the idea that Mind Control programming would have been present with certain celebrities – with actors, musicians and politicians and also in military deployments in areas such as super soldiers and programmed assassins but nobody would have expected it to have gone so deep as to involve regular members of society in all walks of life. I think that’s the thing we could take away from all of this

CATHI: Yes it becomes clear and also this was in the minutes of that meeting in Montreal in the Ritz Carlton Hotel on the 1st June 1951, they actually alluded to that the research . . would be used for social control and I think ultimately that was the goal, of MKULTRA, was the control of entire populations

MARK: Right

CATHI: And so we have the mind control via the programming of the programs on TV is literally, was always intended to control and shape society. I’ve even got people discussing how children’s comics were used as a vehicle to instill ideas that they wanted people to adopt, you know they used children’s comics for that. (8)

MARK: So MKULTRA is still alive and well you would say? I mean the official story is that it was retired sometime in the 1970’s but I’ve never bought that – and I know a lot of people dont’t so – alive and well today as it ever was, I guess?

CATHI: Definitely and of course now you do have the psychotronic aspects of it which are quite disturbing really because they’re not, you know, you can’t taste it, see it, touch it smell it, but it can still . . it still, they have the ability – and they have done for 40 or 50 years, recorded on the documentation – that they’ve had the ability -to speak to you inside of your head if you like where nobody else can hear and make you think it’s your own thoughts . . those kind of abilities have been with us a long time. And of course when you see the frequencies being used to calm rioters . . then it makes you realize . . how easy it would be to . . you know, I think that they actually did try different frequencies on different sections of the population and noted the reactions and that they have been experimenting on those types of issues too.

MARK: Does this connect at all with the concept of TI’s, targeted individuals? Because I’ve heard many testimonies from people who claim they have constant surveillance, with helicopters tailing them wherever they go. They have cars following them in the streets, they say that strangers look at them funny on trains and in public places and sometimes they come up to them and interact with them in some way and they’re just constantly being monitored – is that the same kind of thing that we’re talking about here?

CATHI: . . The TI’s are definitely a direct result of those kind of experiments. It’s a very fascinating area because, clearly some of them are absolutely, you know, spot on, when they’re describing their experiences and yet it’s difficult to understand how such things can be perpetrated on an individual or what would be the benefit of it. I mean, I suppose, just fine tuning the equipment would be a one quite valid reason for targeting an ordinary person, you know, to calibrate the equipment if you like, and of course we have the . . obvious false flag events. Now, those sort of people do seem to be mind controlled too and they often come from . . relatively ordinary backgrounds – they’re not celebrities, lets say. So yeah it’s a fascinating , you know, subject.. theres so much more to find out about how and why it’s perpetrated

MARK:Well yeah, its interesting to reflect on whether these individuals could be deployed to take part in these false flag hoaxes, as the participants involved – that would be one reason for all this being done, I guess.

When it comes to targeted individuals and their claims and their accounts, it’s obviously difficult to verify what they’re saying as there’s very rarely any proof or documentary evidence to back up their claims so a lot of it is down to taking on their testimonies and taking them at face value and you could be skeptical about that. But at the same time you’re conscious of not wanting to sound disbelieving or non sympathetic if their stories are genuine. But it’s very difficult to be able to quantify it and tell the difference

CATHI: It’s a very difficult one to come to terms with and also, I can sort of feel that you could be subjected to a number of interventions and then imagine that everything is part of it because, you know, you’ve got no sort of anchor and no direction, no compass in those kind of circumstances so, you know, other people – that are sort of all kind of twitching and winking at you or coughing and poking their noses – are they really sending secret signals to you or are you just being quite justifiably paranoid because of the other stuff that’s going on, you know it’s hard . . you have to take each case on its individual basis actually, but I would say that if your a TI, if you look into your background and back ground of your parents and grandparents you will probably find stuff, yeah.

MARK: So lets get into some of these music festivals then, which I am fascinated to hear about because of the stories of the likes of Woodstock and the Human Be Ins and the Monterrey festival over in the States have been very well documented but it seems there’s more to know about the original British music festivals, which you don’t hear talked about so often, at least in terms of their origins; the likes of Glastonbury, which first emerged in 1970, the Isle of Wight festivals – they kicked off in 1968 – they were part of the British side of the counter culture, and the Windsor festival which you mentioned you first attended in 1974. What more can we say about what these events – which were the original prototypes for all the British music events that followed, festivals, what they might really have been getting use for?

CATHI: Well I know that Thatcher was . . there was a big program when Thatcher was in power to infiltrate subversive groups . . so in that list was the free festivals. There were three components, there were the union activists, the West Indians, Jamaicans and so on, and then there was the free festivals so that was . . they were literally considered to be prime targets for infiltration. And those people at festivals , I don’t know if it’s like that now, but we were clearly being photographed from helicopters all the time, they were constantly flying over, the police were taking all the numbers you know, the registration numbers of the people attending them so there was that, that was very visible and talking to organisers of festivals, now, I spoke to organisers of Deeply Vale (70’s free festival near Rochdale – ed) and said , you know, did you see any evidence of infiltration? and they said “yeah, we would be photocopying an event, you know, the details of an event one evening and by the next morning the police would know about it”, so they were trying to put on these events and the police were trying to stop them . . so they were trying to be secret but they always seemed to find out inexplicably so its . . it seemed crazy at the time to think that people could be working undercover, to such an extent but I think they actually were

MARK: Is it your view that events like the Glastonbury and Isle of White started out organically enough, innocently enough with benevolent aims and they were infiltrated somewhere along the way and steered off down a particular direction rather than having been created in the first place to have some kind of nefarious effect on the festival goers?

CATHI: I’d say they were probably . . there was influence right from the start, but of course you would have a lot of innocent people thinking that it was . . organic and it was a rebellion, you know, it was . . we were being anti establishment, whereas to think the establishment was shaping these things is . . just mind blowing, you know for someone who was there, imagining that we were doing something completely free and new and it seems like we weren’t really, you know? (laughs)

MARK: So do you think the same thing was going on here with these music festivals as was the case with Woodstock and Monterrey Pop over in the US, this was just a British twist on that particular blueprint that was being applied here in its own way

CATHI: I personally think that’s how . . that’s what will emerge, evidence that will emerge . . its very interesting looking at some of the figures involved . . I know that . . there was a chap called Nick Carr Saunders (9) who was quite active in getting the festivals together – and the alternative scene in London – and his dad was a huge . . top guy in the LSE – who was involved in eugenics and surveys and so on, so you know (10). . its almost reminiscent of when Dave McGowan looked at Laurel Canyon and found the military parents of the musicians people who were producing the rock music, like the Doors, Frank Zappa and Crosby Stills and Nash and so on and . . when you start to look, I think, at the English scene and look at who’s who – whose people’s parents were . . I think we’re going to find . . another sort of remarkable fact . . that the parents were those involved with population monitoring and eugenics. We’ve got Arabella Churchill of course, she’s the well known one – who was instrumental in starting the Glastonbury festival and I’m sure in all innocence but I mean look at the calibre of her parents and their connections!

MARK: it’s certainly a red flag or is to me anyway and it seems with Glastonbury in particular there’s a lot to know about. It seems suspect due to the fact that its only one of the many annual music festivals in the UK that gets full BBC TV and radio coverage, there’s many events they could have chosen but they settled on Glastonbury and it also has the pyramid stage – and it occurs at the time of the summer solstice so you’ve got all these esoteric and occult aspects to it as well and it just seems that there’s a lot going on there.

CATHI: Absolutely, yeah, you’ve said it, there . . and of course it became so huge as well, so quickly, because it was, you know, when it first started there were festivals in a lot of places, there was Glastonbury, little . . a small Glastonbury – I was there in ’75, now you didn’t have to pay . . but the same people would then move on to another festival and then another one and another one and so on for the whole summer, Wales, there were festivals there I went to, and of course the Stonehenge festival. . They all seemed to lose that sort of idealism and . . there was a sense of them, you know, being about being in nature and quite innocent and that went very quickly, that disappeared very quickly.

MARK: Was that the main appeal to you, of attending these events?

CATHI: Yeah, it was . .(cough, excuse me) it was just, it felt like a real alternative, you know, a real new beginning . . I was . . kind of a bit dissociative myself, you know, at these festivals, I was a bit spaced out,(laughs) you know what I mean? I’d run away at 15 and taken acid and then . . it took me a couple of years to really . . come back to reality (laughs) I think, but . .

My boyfriend at the time organised us to go there, he organised everything and I’ve actually found MKULTRA links in his background, too..

MARK: Oh, wow

CATHI: So that was another reason . . his godfather who was a close friend of his father was . . worked with Dr. Andrija Puharich who was an MKULTRA doctor who designed a radio tooth implant . . you know, it was one of his, you know, one of the things that he did, and my partner’s godfather, Brian Inglis was involved with Puharich when he brought Uri Geller to the UK, and he . . Inglis was also close with Arthur Koestler, and other interesting people, like erm, a chap who was . . so Inglis, Koestler and . . a chap called Bloomfield started a Foundation together and Bloomfield was a member of this 1001 Club . . it was called? . . I don’t know if you’ve heard of the secret 1001 Club? They are a sort of more obscure secret . . they have quite a few similar people to the Bilderbergers, so Prince Bernhardt who was involved with beginning, starting the Bilderbergers was also running the 1001 Club and . . they are focused on setting up these huge national parks in Africa which are built over the . . most richly resourced, you know, the area over where there are precious metals and diamonds and so on, so they were quite dodgy really, very dodgy

MARK: Right. What about the Windsor Festival, cos I’m familiar with the other ones but I don’t really know much about that one. Is that along similar lines to Glastonbury and the Isle of Wight?

CATHI: Yes it was – that was really was kind of the first festival . . I’m not sure if it came before Glastonbury or after – it could well have come before. There was a chap called . . he was called . . there were these people called the Wallies, you know, of Stonehenge, and they decided to in fact take Stonehenge back, that it belonged to the people, and when they went to court, because they were all arrested, they didn’t actually give their names, they gave “Wally” as their name – each one had a ‘Wally’ sort of nickname, so . . one of the Wallys went on to . . called Phil Russell – who was also called Wally Hope – went on to start the festival in the queen’s back garden which was Windsor and unfortunately he was arrested . . just a week or two before the first Windsor festival and . . put into a psychiatric hospital and . . was dead within about three or four months because the treatment he got there was so . . that’s the other aspect of what was going on at the time was the, you know, the psychiatry, the barbaric practices that were happening . . around sort of – William Sargant – is the better known person who was doing the electric shock, the experimentation on patients, really to try and repattern them or give them a new personality, all that was going on as well, at that time.

MARK: Do you know much about Michael Eavis, the founder of Glastonbury, I mean was he just this innocent farmer, land owner that got caught up in this whole thing and swept along with it or was there stuff to know about his back ground from the start, I just wondered if you’d looking into him?

CATHI: No, I haven’t got that far with Glaston. . with the 70’s yet because . . I am moving into looking at the 70’s now because I first of all decided to go right back to my grandparents, look at events around their lives and then moved onto my parents and the 50’s, which I’ve been more focused on – those early decades. And I’m working my way through so . . I’m going to look . . much more . . at the free festivals in England now. Now . . one connection I was interested in was that . . one of the main figures in starting these early festivals was a chap called Sid Rawle, and he’d been in contact with John Lennon, and John Lennon had . . donated an island, off the coast of Ireland for them to start a community at, and so prior to starting the free festivals they had this . . island, and they took to . . erm, it became popular with people who wanted to do the Primal Scream type of . . therapy . . on themselves. So they had quite a reputation amongst the Irish locals as Screamers, and there was sort of all sort of rumours about . . the mind control going on over there but who knows how much of that was true and how much was speculation. But I think that whole . . erm now that primal scream . . type of therapy was linked to Tavistock actually,  it was . . what was he called now? . . the name escapes me but he wrote a book called The Primal Scream, and I heard that . . yeah . . I find it really fascinating, that era but .. it’s hard to sort of unpick it, it’s a slow process really because you have, you know you have to be so rigorous about keeping track of the documentation and the links you are finding and so on because it’s such a way out subject area that you can’t just talk off the top of your head to people about these things, it just sounds crazy, you know?

MARK: Oh yeah, you’ve gotta have your research straight and citations and references for sure. I’m very interested in this island which you say John Lennon donated to this sort of experiment, or community. I’m just wondering how he would have been in a position to bequeath that island, I mean did he own it or was he the custodian of it or something? How was it in his possession?

CATHI: Yeah he did own it . . Sid Rawle said he didn’t really have much contact with John Lennon but John Lennon did actually contact him and say “I’m not going to give you . .  . . don’t ask me for any money but you can have the island, you’re welcome to it . . Now I think Paul McCartney . . the Beatles had talked about buying an island and I think . . they’d definitely talked about buying an island elsewhere and maybe they did buy an island elsewhere . . perhaps the one in Ireland was considered to be too barren and cold and so they’d decided to look elsewhere and offload it . . with the hippies as it were, you know? But there’s always . . Do you know, Mark, I think that all these things that are co-opted and hijacked there’s always a very positive aspect to them, that begins organically so . . the free festivals, it was the . . it was the people wanting to reclaim the land that they felt was stolen, and which of course was stolen from us. . Sid Rawle was associated with a group called the Diggers – maybe a new incarnation of an older group.

MARK: Right. Wasn’t Peter Coyote involved in that? The actor over in California?

CATHI: Quite possibly, I don’t know. I don’t know but I do know that . . anybody that gets a group together and says OK we’re going to reclaim the land and starts attracting a lot of attention is going to attract the attention of the authorities, but in this case the authorities didn’t just shut them down but they infiltrated them and used them by the looks of it, for their own agenda. It was perfect for trying out the LSD side of things – that will be interesting to look into, too.

MARK: What sort of time scale are we looking at in terms of this island being donated by John Lennon? Would this be late 1960’s?

CATHI: Yeah. . yeah, it was before the seventies, it was before the free festivals.

MARK: And also I’m very interested in this story of Sid Rawle and his association with a squat in Dublin where Sid Barrett of Pink Floyd was living for a time. Sid Barrett is generally thought of as having gone mad through doing too much LSD but I think when you get into his family background and you put it into the correct context there could be other reasons which would account for his loss of sanity when you really get into it. But this sounds like a fascinating story, can you tell me some more about that?

CATHI: Yeah that’s just something that I’ve come across that I decided I really want to look into this, because the . . it was a house on Merrion, (Mount Merrion?) Street in Dublin that was a squat and associated with both . . Sid Rawle was associated with that squat and Sid Barrett had been there . . living there for a while so . . you have that island off the coast of Ireland, you have the squat in Dublin, no doubt linked – so I do want to look into . .you know, how Sid Barrett became to be connected with this. Cos you know, I’m interested in how . . I suppose they can’t hide everything, you know, how people in Ireland – that I knew – knew about the festivals in England, and it seems to be via this Irish connection . . so that’s something I’m going to look into. But as I say – up to now I’ve been looking into . . the 50’s and earlier but because . . I’m tracing my own life and events in my own life . . the festivals feature prominently in .. in research that I’m about to do now, you know, I want to look . . I think that we’ll find CIA connections there so . . yeah fascinating.

MARK: Yeah I don’t think I’ll fall out of my seat in surprise to discover that was the case, and Sid Barrett’s father, Dr Max Barrett was involved in research at Cambridge University, which is one of the real hotbeds of Mind Control research in the UK. He was working on various projects on behalf of the British Government. So once again we have a family connection through the father between a prominent rock musician and expressions of the government and military intelligence research. Not the first, and I’m sure it won’t be the last. What about the drugs at these early music festivals then. I guess LSD would have been the prominent one but there would have been others as well. Is there anything to suggest that these substances were being foisted upon the festival goers by certain intel agencies with ulterior motives behind getting all these kids hooked on all these drugs, tripping out?

CATHI: That does seem to be logical so I would expect to find that. . When you research the variations of LSD for example, that the CIA came up with and tested on volunteers, some of them, I mean it wasn’t just LSD, they were looking at . . the way these substances interacted with the brain, which neurotransmitters were affected, so they could tweak the drugs to get different effects. So I think this business where you’ve got so called bad acid, I think you probably will find that the chemists, the military chemists would have been trying all different sorts of flavours if you like, or effects. The probably had a very sophisticated understanding of the chemistry . . behind this – even in those days, so, you know these days now, it will be even . . way more fine tuned. Because we know . . it’s pretty much documented now that a lot of, the majority of the worlds acid was actually coming out of Wales at one time and that was associated with the people who were later busted in Operation Julie and in fact it did include a chap who was American, or who was associated with the CIA called Ronald Hadley Starke, so we do have that CIA connection there for starters.

MARK: What about, is your research taking you into the free party scene of the late 80’s, early 90’s house scene where ecstasy would have been the drug of choice, so suddenly it was all about MDMA, known as ‘E’, which was prevalent at all these parties and open-air raves which constituted that whole scene. Have you looked into that time period at all?

CATHI: No I haven’t looked at all at that, I was busy having babies by then, you know, being the archetypal hippie and earth mother, I had seven children, so I had withdrawn really from the festival scene by then..

MARK: I’m really trying to get a fix on where all the ecstasy pills came from that were such a big part of that late 80’s / early 90’s scene in Britain because it’s so much easier to trace where all the LSD was coming from with the counter-culture scene of the 60’s but it’s very difficult to get provable documentary evidence to show where all the E’s were coming from in this British scene. Certainly they were everywhere and you know there were hundreds of thousands of these pills getting distributed to clubs and raves and festivals every single weekend in their heyday, but in terms of where they were all coming from, because there was a never-ending supply is much more difficult to quantify. I don’t know if you have any insights into that?

CATHI: That’s interesting, yeah I’ll certainly you know, look into that when I get to that era, well when I start looking at the festivals. But often if you can look into the academic published research, you know, like chemistry, behaviourism, psychiatry, sometimes you pick up stuff that way, information that way. I’m great at reading medical documents now (laughs) you know scanning them to get . . the information out and you know the people, scientists that were working on those – things like, what’s it called? I think it’s HT5 which was a neuro-transmitter which they initially discovered before finding things that would interact with it which was LSD and other consciousness raising things. So when you start digging around in the chemistry side of things you can sometimes pick stuff up, you know. . Gaddum and LSD: the birth and growth of experimental and clinical neuropharmacology research on 5-HT in the UK

MARK: Sure.
CATHI: More clues.

MARK: So have you been able to regain any memories of what may have have happened to you in early life, that may have been repressed and buried in the subconscious, because you mentioned it’s like putting the pieces to a jigsaw together in terms of trying to understand the big picture and understand what had gone on. Have you had any kind of recollections which have come to light recently which may have been buried deep?

CATHI: Yeah . . well, once I’d sort of established that lots of unusual things happened that seemed to be related, like moving down to be closer to the team, near the underground base, I noticed that there were a lot of twins in our school, which was actually a Jesuit school. So then my memories – I put my memories in a different context then, so memories that you just sort of have with you all your life and don’t think anything about sort of re-emerged. For example, as a very small child, I had a dream, which had . . a recurring dream which had details in it that actually were . . I dreamt that my father was in a group of what I called wizards and they were making him do something that was quite obscene which I found out was actually part of a satanic ritual so – it’s called coprophilia and I was dreaming that I was taken from my bed, and brought to this place and there were men in robes and my dad was made to do this as part of an initiation. Now to me now this is a red flag for having been . . having some grounding in reality because my dad actually did became . . so we moved to Bath from Rochdale and then my father became a pedophile and he was hanging round with . . sort of trying to get ahead, he was hanging round with . . the local MP who lived at the bottom of our street, our neighbour and . . you know. . Peter Parker was, became a director of my dad’s company so Peter Parker was linked to Jimmy Savile and Prince Philip (very closely linked to Prince Philip). . Peter Parker’s wife started the False Memory Association (FMA) in England, you know, the British FMA and in America we know that the FMA was started by MKULTRA doctors as a sort of plausible deniability for people’s recollections, people recalling that they’d been experimented on, they said “Oh no that’s a false memory that’s been implanted” (laughs) you know? . . which is quite brutal really for people trying to get justice. So . .lots of stuff like that, yeah.

MARK: What you just said there put me in mind of Adam Ant’s father, Adam Ant’s real name was Stuart Goddard and his father, I think was Alfred Leslie Goddard, and he was exposed as a pedophile, he was part of a network that involved this guy, Sidney Cook and there were links going into Jimmy Savile as well and all these parliamentary pedophiles, and that Dolphin Square network. So Adam Ant’s father did some jail time for that. Adam Ant’s mother worked as a cleaner for a short time for “Paul McCartney” (in inverted commas) which is quite intriguing and Adam Ant himself is a very interesting character because he’s bipolar by his own admission, he’s gone on interviews and talked quite openly of his mental illness, but when you consider what goes on in the entertainment industry and what is understood now about mind control programming, you know, there are other explanations for his behaviours and his seemingly dissociative personality disorder. . and how interesting that you’ve got the links into pedophile rings and also the military because his father served for a time in the military. So it’s all the same components that you see time and time again, connected back into the world of music.

CATHI: Oh absolutely fascinating, yeah because he . . didn’t Adam Ant do that amazing . . video where he smashed his – he’s got all different alters, the mirror? That’s so symbolic of re-integrating your alters.

MARK: Absolutely, there are several of his music videos, actually where there are hints at dissociation and multiple personality disorder, he takes on all these personas in the video, playing different parts, there are shattered mirrors as you say which hint at the shattered dissociated personality of the subject and also he has a video which was filmed in a masonic temple with the black and white checkerboard floor which is a motif that you find in many many 80’s pop videos actually which is part of the research for my upcoming book.

CATHI: Absolutely, because mind control programming . . it actually causes a type of post traumatic stress disorder .. you know, it’s . . deliberately cultivated because people who are in trauma, they are hyper-vigilant and they can have extraordinary talents, then, you know it can promote a higher intelligence, it can promote a photographic memory, and . . so on which is why public schools (IE private fee paying schools – ed ) are so brutal, you know and there’s trauma going on there because children function better in sort of competitive, psychopathic type of you know leadership roles then, that’s all linked to the trauma as well.

MARK: . . and it seems so many of the very best Hollywood actors and the very best musicians show all the signs of having been subject to mind control programming. And people might say well you know, if they’ve been mind controlled, how can they perform so well, and wouldn’t that impede their performance? Well I think the opposite is actually true. The devotion to talent, the training, the hours and hours of preparation that are put into it to sharpen the skills and get the performance off to a fine art is actually a bi-product of the programming, it goes hand in hand with it. It’s an inevitable play out of what they’ve been a part of and that’s the reason why they are selected for these prominent positions because they’re the best you can get for it.

CATHI: Absolutely and when you’re traumatized as a child, one of the symptoms is to feel like exposed like you’re on a stage all the time, so you feel like as if, as you walk down the street, that everyone is looking at you. So that’s perfect for becoming . .

MARK: . . a performer, yeah, a performer and an entertainer yeah, absolutely, it’s the natural career path for somebody who’s come out of that.

CATHI: Yeah, yeah – then of course (sighs) . . they have this sort of celebrity culture which is dictated from the television as it were, these celebrities just playing along with it, you know, playing right along with it, literally not fully aware, most of them not even aware of how they are being used.

MARK: So have you copped any flack since you decided to speak out about all of this, have you encountered any difficulties or have you largely been able to go about your business unaffected?

CATHI: Yeah I’ve been . . I’ve not had any targeting particularly you know, I’ve not noticed anything. I just work on the assumption that if there’s a mobile phone in the room then anybody could be listening basically, do you know (laughs), intelligence services and so on but I would imagine they’ve got plenty to be doing . . so my sort of . . starting with the historical research, so much detail and I wasn’t looking to . . I wasn’t really looking to reach a lot of people, I was just looking to find out my own story, and just sharing that, so everything I’ve been talking about is pretty much in the main stream, documented, the documentation is there for it – it’s not secret suff, it’s just putting it all together, that is what I’ve done.

MARK: So for those listening in advance of the date, you’re going to be speaking at the Awake Con conference taking place in Hampshire in November, Saturday the 11th, I think your on at 5 pm, I’m going to be coming down to take a listen to that. What sort of stuff are you going to be presenting in you talk? Is it going to be largely what we’ve spoken about in this podcast today, or do you have some different information to put across?

CATHI: I will just be focusing on what I’ve . . spoken about but more details, you know, about the historic and I’m still more . . tying up the 1950’s say up until 1974 really and perhaps a bit earlier, looking at my grandparents really, so just looking at all that so . . One really (sound drops ed) was looking at children in the Saturday Morning Cinema clubs because cinemas at that time were being closely monitored – this J Arthur Rank – cinema clubs, now that was something I meant to bring up so I’ll just say now, say we find that teams of psychiatrist were putting in . . certain things into the movies and they were photographing them with infra red cameras, the audience at the time, to see what their reactions were so they could better make movies that they could implant ideas into children basically and that was the United Nations UNESCO that was doing those things so I’m still going to be concentrating on stuff . . like that that have emerged, you know just to try and demonstrate how closely the population were being monitored and manipulated and how that is documented and that is in the literature, you know, and then I’m going to move on to the 70’s . . which is going to be fun actually I’m looking forward to researching the 70’s era from there onwards.

MARK: So that’s taking place at Medstead Village Hall, Medstead Hampshire over the weekend of the 11th and 12th of November – there’s a whole load of speakers there, Thomas Sheridan, Maria Wheatley, David Shayler, a couple of previous Good Vibrations guests, Carl James and Ben Emlyn Jones and a whole load of other names as well. is the address for that. Have you got any other upcoming talks that you want to mention or any youtube videos or anything like that?

CATHI: I have a youtube channel and it’s cathimorgan, that’s got most of my presentations and interviews on a playlist on that channel. .

MARK: OK. Did you ever know Max Spiers?

CATHI: Yeah . . I didn’t know him well, we communicated a couple of times, that’s all, that was tragic.

MARK: I mean I’m just wondering how his story fits into everything else we’ve spoken of today in terms of targeted individuals and those who appear to have surveillance on them the whole time and the key would appear to be their family backgrounds and the bloodline that they’re born into, just wondering how his story connects into all of this, if it does in any way?

CATHI: Yeah it seems like he was more on the sort of super-soldier type of . . side of things, he lived in the States as well, or was it Canada? as a child, so it was a different thing really.

MARK: And Sarah Adams was his partner, right? who’s going to be speaking at the Awake Con as well?

CATHI: That’s right, yeah

MARK: OK. How did Bases go? Your Bases Conference this year right?

CATHI: Oh it was great, Bases in Dublin, Ireland, I’ve just come back actually, I spoke on Sunday . . it was just fantastic, people flew in from Canada and from Holland, and somebody flew in from LA, so it garnered a lot of international attention, because Kerry Cassidy was involved in promoting the conference so she arranged for Daniel Liszt to have a link – he’s called Dark Journalist – a . . Skype link and there was a great feeling of you know co-operation, of people coming together from quite a lot of different countries.

MARK: So I know you’ve got a blog, a WordPress blog but you’ve not posted to it for quite some time, is that something you hope to get back to doing soon?

CATHI: Yeah I’ve had quite major disruptions in attempting to move to Ireland, I’m settled now and things have worked out beautifully, but there was a couple of hairy years there where I was quite financially challenged and so on so . . I didn’t have the time and energy to do it, but now I want to get my blog into some shape and post my latest stuff. I haven’t published any of my latest stuff for a couple of years yet so that’s in the pipeline.


CATHI: Oh the blog is at wordpress

MARK: OK and is there anything we’ve not covered in our conversation today that you’d like to add or have we pretty much covered it all.

CATHI: I think we’ve . . covered a good overview of stuff there , yeah, I’m – it’s been really interesting talking to you . .you’ve filled me in on a few bits there that I didn’t know about like, Sid Barrett’s father for example so I’ll be looking into that!

MARK: Alright Cathi, thanks for coming onto Good Vibrations today.

CATHI: Thanks for inviting me, it’s been great, thanks.


  1. If we take into consideration Stevenson’s early work with Conrad Jameson with the Economist Intelligence Unit (1966), a report on Labour Party membership (1968), his ‘privately funded’ (Anai, 1998) intelligence gathering on West Indians (1970), monitoring of pressure group activities, voluntary groups, environmental organisations and the various groups represented around free festivals in the mid-70s, we have fair representation of what might be termed the ‘counter-culture.’ At the time these groups were the subject of covert surveillance, agent provocateurs and of immense interest to the secret state and the anti-subversive factions outlined above.
  2. The origins and innovatory nature of the 1946 British national birth cohort study
    Michael Wadsworth
  3. For example Zuckerman was a member of the Defense Research Policy Committee Advisory Council for Scientific Policy created in 1946 which was chaired by Tizard from 1947 till 1952. Zuckerman Archives
  4. “One of the most controversial meetings Tizard had to attend in his capacity as chair of the Defence Research Policy Committee would only emerge many years later with the declassification of CIA documents, namely a meeting on June 1, 1951 at the Ritz-Carlton Hotel in Montreal, Quebec, Canada, between Tizard, Omond Solandt (chairman of Defence Research and Development Canada) and representatives of the CIA, to discuss “brainwashing.” 
  5. “Three months after the Montreal meeting, in one of the most significant steps for gestation of the CIA’s psychological paradigm, Ottawa’s Defense Research Board (DRB) awarded Dr. Hebb a “secret” grant, under Contract DRB-X38 from 1951 to 1955, for experiments that discovered the devastating psychological impact of sensory isolation. As Hebb explained in his classified 1952 report, this experiment was measuring “whether slight changes of attitude might be effected” by shorter periods of isolation intensified by “wearing (a) light-diffusing goggles, (b) earphones through which white noise may be constantly delivered . . . , and (c) cardboard tubes over his [the subject’s] forearms so that his hands . . . cannot be used for tactual perception of the environment.” In contrast to the modest impact anticipated, Hebb reported that “motivational disturbance appears great,” and among twenty-two subjects “four remarked spontaneously that being in the apparatus was a form of torture.” Evidently encouraged, Hebb concluded, “the contract is opening up a field of study that is of both theoretical and practical significance” (Hebb, Heron, & Bexton, 1952, Appendix 22). With a growing sense of his project’s scientific import, Hebb—aware of competition from his colleague Dr. Ewan Cameron who, he said, “is now undertaking some work with this method”—pressed the DRB for permission to publicize his results. But the Board resisted by insisting on secrecy and, if necessary, deceptive cover stories (Morton, 1 January 1953; Hebb, 15 December 1952). Although public disclosures were restricted, Hebb’s 1952 annual report was distributed to all three branches of the U.S. military along with “1 copy to Central Intelligence Agency (USA)” (Hoyt, 7 May 1956). After three years of secret research, the story finally leaked to the Toronto Star in January 1954. In a background memo for the minister, the DRB’s Dr. Solandt explained that Hebb’s research had “originated from a discussion among Sir Henry Tizard, representatives of the US Central Intelligence Agency, Dr. Hebb . . . , and myself in June 1951.” Hebb’s subsequent research has “given some indication that significant changes in attitude can be brought about by use of propaganda under conditions of isolation.” With a misleading cover story that the project was preventing monotony by those monitoring a radar display, the DRB soon silenced the press (Hebb, 11 January 1954; Solandt, 25 January 1954).
  6. Sharing the Secret: The History of the Intelligence Corps 1940-2010 By Nick Van Der Bijl pp 345.  See also
  7. Guide to the Solly Zuckerman and Julian Huxley letters, 1931-1967
  8. “The young were able to purchase comics and magazines which informally transmitted targeted political messages that were to be replicated in newspapers read by their parents and guardians and to listen to radio broadcasts that were tailored to their perceived interests and enthusiasms”  Citizenship, Education and Lifelong Learning, Power and Place by M Williams and G Humphreys pp.21
  9. Nick Saunders
  10. Alexander Carr Saunders

Comments on: "Interview with Mark Devlin" (2)

  1. Fascinating and wonderful work.

    • Cathi Morgan said:

      Thank you so much Ann, I very much appreciate your work too. I’m sure you will understand when I say it’s taken me a very long time to start to articulate all this. At least now I understand how this due to getting triggered and overwhelmed!!

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